From Outrage To Empathy: How Politics Tests A Relationship And What It Taught Me;

The outrage machine wants you angry and certain. I wanted peace—especially at home. After a long winter of doomscrolling U.S. politics from Australia, I realized my left-leaning convictions were colliding with my partner’s right-leaning worldview, and our love was absorbing the shock. So we slowed down. We stripped our arguments to claims and evidence, named the fears hidden under the rhetoric, and practiced conceding fair points without surrendering our values.

You’ll hear the turning point that changed how we talk about Trump, Gaza, taxes, and media bias. I share why a Jewish partner’s fear reframed my understanding of hardline positions, how grief and blame bend public conversation, and what it took to move from “winning” debates to building trust. We get practical about stepping out of echo chambers: cross-checking sources, resisting algorithmic outrage, and replacing slogans with specifics. We also explore a tougher truth—sometimes your heroes fall short and your adversaries land a valid point—and how to stay grounded when that happens.

If you’re exhausted by tribal fights but still care deeply about justice, empathy, and facts, this conversation offers a path: separate values from political vehicles, acknowledge tradeoffs, and let curiosity lead. It won’t fix polarization overnight, but it can transform how you relate to the news—and to the person across the table. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who thinks differently, and leave a review with one belief you’re willing to re-examine.

Chapters

• 0:00 Winter Blues And A Fresh Start
• 0:47 Doomscrolling U.S. Politics
• 1:48 Love Across The Political Divide
• 3:27 On Debate, Facts, And Respect
• 5:27 Grief, Polarization, And Blame
• 7:52 Understanding My Partner’s Motivations
• 10:25 Gaza, Fear, And Empathy
• 12:45 The Trump Argument Breakthrough
• 15:20 Agreeing To Disagree At Home
• 17:01 Beyond Echo Chambers
• 19:11 Choosing Facts Over Fury
• 21:12 A Plea For Balance And Peace
• 24:10 Closing Reflections And Challenge

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome back to Fitzcapades. My name is Michelle. Um it's been a long winter and even up in the north of New South Wales, it was really cold. I got sick with a nasty episode of pylon nephritis, which is the infection of my right kidney. And I haven't really uh done a lot of podcasts at all in quite a while. I guess um I I've been, yeah, like I always get a little bit down and uninspired in winter. And um yeah, anyway, it's coming up the end of that now and it's springtime, and um yeah, the weather's turned. Uh and so anyway, I guess the I've had be had the inspiration to do a podcast today, so here it is. So I've always been a follower of American politics, uh, particularly around the Trump sort of uh administration reigns, if you will, um and it's kind of like disaster porn, you know. Um because I am a very left-leaning sort of voter, or moderate left, not anti for left sort of thing, like um, and a lot of what is happening uh in the States is quite shocking to me. And um yeah, I I only can't believe what's going on there and and I guess part of my depression a little bit over winter is that I got sucked into uh you know looking at X and punching on with some of the mega people there. It's a bit of a sport, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't bring any positive energy into my life, and I really have to stop that. But again, sometimes it's just irresistible sort of thing to do. Uh yeah, so but what I wanted to talk to everyone today, because I see so much hate and division uh in the world at the moment, there's so much hatred and just I guess senseless hatred for from the right towards the left. Um and yeah, it's uh really saddening to see the way that the world's going, I guess, you know. Um and I guess what either where I wanted to start with all of this is to say that so my partner, um, the love of my life is actually a right-leaning um a right-leaning uh voter. Like so, you know, when we first met, I just kind of assumed that everyone in Australia pretty much thought that Donald Trump was an absolute idiot. And, you know, um how could anyone, you know, fathom what good he could do being in um in power in America? And I was horrified to find out that this lovely man that I'd met watches sky news and all this right-wing stuff, and like his so his views were always very skewed in that direction, and then when we would discuss politics, it would always get very heated because of course he was very, very biased towards the right, and I, of course, consume a lot of left and left and and my ideals um, you know, are very leftist in terms of um my pol political beliefs, I guess. And indeed, over the time that we've been together, we have had some very impassioned and spicy discussions about about the topic because I am arguably a little bit too invested in knowing all that's going on, and I get very passionate because for me, Donald Trump he just represents everything that's the opposite that I believe, you know. And um like I just can't believe that someone who has you know committed so many crimes and being such a despicable person can actually prevail and be in power. Like these are the things I struggle with personally. Um, but I am still together with my partner and still very much in love. And I yeah, I wanted to discuss my whole journey around all of this and perhaps then put this out there as an example to everyone that you know we can learn to listen to what the other side has to say, and if we understand where we're coming, where they are coming from and how their own personal experiences lead to them believing something that might be different to what you believe, you can still live in harmony with that person and indeed love them. Uh, because I see differences in political views just causing like people to take guns and shoot people, which is you know fucking horrendous, you know. And I just worry about where humanity is going, you know. Um the death of Charlie Kirk really upset me, okay. It it really did. Um, so my partner used to watch a lot of Charlie Kirk on on YouTube, and I did watch him too. And I have to say, now I haven't seen a lot of his other stuff, and apparently he has said some pretty out there, sort of racist, terrible things, but I myself never witnessed that coming out of his mouth, so all I have to go by is what I saw. So I used to he used to watch the university debates, and to be honest with you, I even though I didn't agree with everything that he had to say, he I respected him. Like he sat there and he I got people to ask him questions, he was polite, but he made people question what the basis for their beliefs are, you know. He he really did, and he was factual, although a lot of his facts, when you fact-check them, maybe were not a hundred percent you know true. But I could respect him. He seemed to be a dude who had beliefs, he was out there trying to make the world a better place in the way that he thought was best. And you know, at the end of the day, uh no one deserves to die because they're speaking, you know, their opinions or you know, um, and and his stuff was very thought-provoking, and I and I thought he was he was pretty like calm, he never got angry, he never he I liked his demeanour and I liked his approach, even though I didn't agree with him. And so when he died, uh I was really sad. I was sad for a number of reasons, right? Really, because firstly, he's a 31-year-old man, father of two kids, that's a tragedy in its own right. Um, also, I knew that when it happened, this was going to be terrible for the left, like absolutely fucking a disaster, because I knew that the Trump administration would turn this around and make this demonize the left and blame his death on them, and that would lead to outrage and war. And indeed, this is what we have seen play out, you know. And so, um, yeah, I don't know in what world anyone from the left would celebrate this death, it is not helpful in any way to the plight of the left, and unfortunately, Americans being Americans lump everyone who is leftward leading together. So, you know, for instance, like, you know, the far, far left, like people like Greta Thunberg and things like that, I don't agree with her. She's not this in the same camp as me. She's too far left. That I guess what I'm trying to say is that the difference between my beliefs and someone on the far left is the same amount of difference that there is between my beliefs and someone on the right, you know, they're not the same, but you know, this is the infuriating thing that everyone's sort of lumped in together, and there's not a very a great deal of sophistication in terms of you know, uh understanding of what uh yeah, different people believe, depending on what camps they come from, you know. I mean, most leftward uh leaning people today are really quite moderate and you know, if the truth be told, not that different from most of the right people who are in the middle, so to speak, at least in Australia, maybe not in America. Um I think MAGA probably represents far right, to be honest with you. Anyway, coming back to my uh relationship with my partner, so I'd never really been in a relationship with anyone who was on the right. And um I guess uh being in a relationship with someone with who doesn't have the same views as me has taught me a lot. A lot, actually. Um it's taught me to question and my the basis for my own beliefs. So, firstly, what you find is a lot of people get very impassioned about their beliefs and they get get very, including myself, get very blinded, you know, and uh you got passionately believe something so much so that when you actually question what the basis for your beliefs is, you realise that you don't know a lot, you know, about it and that it's all just isms that you're sort of believing in, and that um I think that's a very dangerous perspective to to you know, a very d dangerous way to be. Um, and so what being my my partner has been uh has helped me to uh to actually look into uh the facts behind all the stuff on the news and um to really just yeah, fact-checked my beliefs and and um and just I guess make sure uh that I'm not just believing in isms and um uh that that there's the actual real reason behind um what I believe. Like um I'm trying to say a good example would be like um I listened actually to Joe Rogan interview Bernie Sanders, um, both of whom I have respect for, you know, I do. Um and I have respect for Joe Rogan because even though he's doesn't I I don't again I don't agree with him for a lot of things, he's still reasonable and he seeks he fact checks and he yeah, like um he's curious about what other people have to think, he's respectful, and yeah, he he he facts checks. So he had Bernie Sanders on, and like Bernie Sanders was talking about um Donald Trump and you know how he's um you know suing all of the media for saying speaking out in any way negative about him and how corrupt that is and everything like that, and fundamentally I agree with Bernie, but then when Joe started to drill down and say, Well, look, hang on a minute, there was this particular time when he did sue CNN and you know like they were uh saying defamatory things, and and Bernie just didn't have anything factual to come back to that with, and I realized you know his his his rebuttal was yeah, but Donald Trump's a scumbag and a liar, and you know, and it's like yes, we all know that, you know, we do, but uh then you have to have facts to to back that up in order to argue it, and I was like, there just didn't seem to be a lot of substance behind what he was saying, um, and I was disappointed because fundamentally, if you were to research the backstory of that, you know, there may or may not be, you know, reasonable grounds for Donald Trump to have done what he did, you know, and I think that's the thing uh, you know, I then I thought to myself, you know, you know, even though I don't agree with a lot of uh what Donald Trump has to say, I think he's inarticulate, I think he's it probably he's quite stupid in some ways. I think he behaves in quite an unpresidential manner, the way he uh rants and raves on ex and things like that. But you know what? Maybe in some cases uh the truth was on his side, and and we have to be prepared to concede that of our of people on the other side, you know, um, rather than just blanketly say that they're always in the wrong and that we're always in the right, you know. Um I think that's really important. And I was kind of disappointed in Bernie, but I I could respect where Joe was coming from, you know, and this is the thing. Um we can concede when the other side has got a good point, you know, we must concede that. We mustn't just be completely unable to hear what the other side has to say because we're too afraid to have our own beliefs proven wrong, you know. Um I think that you you know the world is not black and white, there are greys, and sometimes Donald Trump, you know, has does good things and and has some redeeming qualities, uh, and sometimes he certainly does not, you know. Um so my partner is is Jewish and obviously he follows what's going on in Gaza quite closely because like these are his people, you know, and um look the situation in in Gaza is very complex. Like I can see like it's so complex that I don't understand everything, and I'll admit that, you know, and and I have no vested interest in that conflict other than to say it's terribly sad, it's it's tragic, there's too much violence, there's too much loss of life, uh, it's horrendous and it needs to stop, you know. Um, but I don't I'm not a fay with all of the ins and outs of it. It's very, very complicated, you know. Um and the only wisdom that I have on the matter is coming from my partner, and I recognise that that is probably also biased as well, you know. Um, but I see how distressed it makes him because he is, I guess, terrified of having his people annihilated, you know. So the thing is that like the way he sees it is that Hamas wants to wipe every Jew off the face of the earth, and so Israel must continue to defend against them, and so it's an ever night, never-ending, perpetuating war. It's a it's it's it's a horrendous situation, you know. And and so I can empathize with him because I I don't want him to see his people wiped off the face of the planet, you know. I think that um I mean I love this man, you know. And so um we were having a really heated discussion about uh Donald Trump, right? And I was like, listen, man, he's a fucking pedo rapist, like, you know, like I'm outraged about the whole Jeffrey Epstein thing. I said, Look, you know, he's being convicted of rape, and he's like, no, he hasn't been convicted of rape. And I said, Well, E. Gene Carroll, and he goes, Well, that's sexual abuse, and I'm like, Well, sexual abuse is still pretty bad, like you know, I mean, I wouldn't say that's an excuse. Uh like the only reason that she he wasn't convicted of rape was the statute of limitations, and he was just defending her, and this is outraging me, and I was just getting more and more emotional, and and I was like, listen, man, and this is when it came to a paper, like I am really um shocked and quite worried that you are defending a sexual predator. Like, why are you defending Donald Trump? You know, and he just looked at me and goes, Because Donald Trump, in my opinion, is the only person that can settle the war in Israel. You know, he's he's the only person he's you know, uh he he he doesn't just talk about make taking action, he takes action, you know, he he's put uh he's he's the only one that sent bombs over there, you know, la la la la la. And I was like, ah, okay. And in that moment, I truly understood. And I was like, yeah, this is nothing to do with my partner condoning or having the same views as Donald Trump because like my partner's a wonderful man, he's not dodgy, he's honest, he's certainly not a sexual predator or anything like that. He is a good man, uh, and I could see then that that his concern for his people in Israel and his belief that Donald Trump was the only person that could actually do something, uh that made him really want Donald Trump to continue on in power and and be pro-Trump. That was his motivation. And I in that moment, although I don't necessarily agree that Donald Trump will be able to sort that one out, if he look, if he does, fucking that's a good thing. I don't disagree with it, you know. If he does manage to stop that war, then as much as I hate Trump and I think he's dangerous and he needs to be gotten rid of, not not wasted, but you know, like gotten out of power, uh, if he manages to stop the war in Gaza, then that's a good thing, you know, and and I will not never say otherwise, you know, I you'd have to give him that. Um but aside from that, I could see then that this is why my partner held these views and wanted Donald Trump in and continued to defend him in any ridiculous manner that would come forward, uh, even though uh I you know the the points you know even though uh the ways that he was defending him uh were really ridiculous, uh, I could see that this is where it was coming from and I could accept that, you know, and and and I was at peace then, uh, in a way. I I like I because I had empathy for my partner and I could see the motivation behind it, and I could see that yeah, like he probably didn't really believe some of the things he was saying in defence of him, but it was just this really strong motivating factor to see the war in Gaza end and to not see the annihilation of his people, you know. So I could understand and and I could accept, I I could accept uh you know where he was coming from. And so I didn't feel the need then to continue to challenge him on political issues because I understood I guess I could see that uh his defense in Donald Trump didn't mean that he condoned all of the other things about him that I hate. His single motivating factor was what Donald would be able to do in Gaza. And I look, I could l leave it at that. You know, I don't know enough about the situation to be able to say, yes, I think he will do be successful or no, I think that that's absolutely a ridiculous belief. And I guess that's probably a good thing that I didn't I don't know enough because then the debate ended, and I uh didn't have this conflict in my mind that you know I love this man, he's wonderful in every other way, but yet his beliefs politically clash with mine, and I just can't sit with it. I could sit easy with that, I could see, and I guess the lesson in that is that we need to learn to listen to the other side as hard as it is can be sometimes, as hard as it can be, you know, because that's how we learn, and you know, I mean it would be absolutely so very stupid of me to throw this wonderful relationship that I have with this man away because we can't agree on American politics. I mean, we don't even live in the fucking country. Um uh yet at times I found it really challenging until I understood why and the reasons for it. Um, I mean, like Australian politics are much more moderate, and again, our views do not align. So I believe in social security, I believe in empathy towards people who are immigrants, who are seeking asylum, you know, from horrible places. I believe in healthcare that should be free for all. I all of those left things I believe in. I believe that I like, you know, for instance, um it being in a higher income bracket, I have no problems paying a little bit of extra tax if it means that we've got welfare and social security. Um I believe all of that. Whereas my partner uh doesn't believe that, you know, he he he bemoans having to pay higher taxes and and things like that, you know, he's very much I've worked very hard for all my properties and and everything, and you know, why should I have to give more money to you know the socialist government? And he feels very cheated by this. And I sit there and I kind of have to laugh to myself because I go, dude, like you've got massive houses and stuff like that. And you're talking about the next person who hasn't even owned a house, you know, the there's vast differences there, and really at the end of the day you might pay a few more taxes, but you still get up in the morning in your nice house with everything that you need, and life is pretty good, you know. You didn't wake up in Gaza in the morning, but I can respect where he's coming from too, because he's worked very hard to get what he, you know, his background is very different from mine, and so he that colours his politics, you know. Um, and I think I appreciate actually being with someone who is not of the same uh thinking or leaning as me because it challenges me um uh in many ways and it makes me a better person and it makes me able to listen to the other side and be at peace with that, or be uh able to agree to disagree on many things, you know. Um and I th I think also it's very easy to be seduced by a politician um if we like them because their ideals might align with ours and they might be particularly charismatic and and you know come across as a person that it seems to be good to us and you know um and then uh to not be able to hear or acknowledge about things that they might have gotten wrong in the past or to be dismissive when we hear like criticism of these people um uh from others. Uh yeah, being with my partners taught me how to I guess not surround myself in an echo chamber. For instance, um, so like President Obama was I I I was a b I remain a big fan of him, you know. I I do, I I he's articulate, I he stood for a lot of what I stand for. You know, his um he just comes across as a person with very good moral fibre, you know, and so when my partner, you know, said, well, he did he made this mistake or that mistake, you know, the tendency was for me at the start to be very dismissive and to say, look, that's absolute bullshit, you know. And then I I sort of started to think and I was like, well, okay, I can still like fundamentally uh hold Obama in in a high esteem. He's human, everyone makes mistakes, you know. Perhaps there are things that he didn't get right, and of course there are, you know, being a politician is a complex job. There's many moving parts, and you can't always get it right, and you can't always keep everyone happy, you know. And so um I s when my partner started to, you know, uh point out some of the th some of his failings, I I looked it up and I I looked at the actual facts of what went went wrong, and uh what I discovered was that yeah, there were some things that didn't go so well in his presidency. Um and you know, uh uh it that I think made me a better person rather than just to blindly come in and defend him, say no, you know, there's nothing that he's done wrong, he's like the perfect president. Well, no one's perfect, you know. Uh I guess the point being is that I maybe was scared to hear criticism of him because it would prove my ideology wrong. And uh that's I guess the failings of a lot of humanity is that we cannot we don't want to hear the other side because we don't want to be proven wrong. And I I didn't no longer want to fall into that category of blindly believing something because then I'm no better than someone who's a brainwashed MAGA supporter. So uh being with him has challenged me to look into all of this, you know. When he casts these accusations, I like to then see what their proper facts are, and this makes me a far more balanced person, and I'm appreciative of this, you know. I mean, the last thing I want to be is someone who just blindly continues to believe uh in an ideology uh without having solid facts to back it up or knowledge either, you know. I think the the worst thing you can do is get into a political argument and not have all your facts straight, you know. Uh um it's just it you just look like an idiot. And I mean, I I guess fundamentally and beyond that, you know, I don't want to be ignorant. Um you know, I want to be well informed, I guess, and only make my decisions based on on truth and fact, you know, um, and uh not continue to be this emotional person who just uh wears my heart on my sleeve and and goes out on a crusade of yeah, emotion and and and can't hear what the other side has to say, and and I think that's very blinded perspective to come from as well, and you don't learn and you don't evolve, you know. But it doesn't mean that a lot of what's happening in America doesn't still outrage me. It certainly does, you know. And I guess that's a topic for another day. Um maybe I should do some more podcasts on what I find so distressing about what's going on, you know. Um I guess at the end of the day, I'm sitting here in Australia and it's peaceful, and we're not affected by all this, but my concern is of course, one day we might be, you know, and that that's terrifying as well. And I don't I don't know which way I I don't see humanity going in a in a very good way, you know. I see us headed for division and and war and conflict and um and I don't think that's a good place to be. So I guess for me to continue to be emotionally, you know, an emotional sort of uh left wing um uh uh person, uh then that's not helping the world, you know. I I think that that peace and order it it it exists in in a when we're balanced and we leave emotion out of this and we are factual, you know, and we we question and we dissect and we um and we yeah challenge our beliefs, you know. So yeah, anyway, that's probably all I have to say. The main point being is that politics doesn't have to divide us and nor should it. If we believe in true democracy, then we have to be able to listen to the other side and indeed see and and indeed what is missing in the world today is empathy, you know. Some people get so coloured by their politics that they are so filled with hate that it drives them to do things like shoot other people, which is absolutely ridiculous. You know, this is not the sort of world that we want to live in. If we want peace and order and we want happiness, then the bottom line is that we have to learn to live next door to people with different ideologies from our own. We have to learn to listen to others, to stop denying, to stop, you know, not being able to hear what they have to say. To say uh and and and to come together and discuss and agree to disagree or come to a common ground. That that's that's where peace and harmony exists. Where the whole MAGA movement is going, I don't think most of these uh uh supporters know exactly where it's going, you know. It's like even the Palestinians or like not Hamas, you know, they don't know where it's going. In their own mind, they're so blinded by the need to annihilate and wipe out the other side and blow them into non-existence that they're not even considering what will happen if theoretically they manage to do this, you know, suppress completely this their opposing side, then they're gonna be left in a world filled with only people of their own. And who are they going to when they're so full filled with hate and dark energy and the need for conflict, then they're gonna start warring against themselves as well, you know, and and and where does that end? That's never gonna end in a place that is happy and peaceful. Uh it's only going to lead to unhappiness, war, and the collapse of humanity. That's where I see it all going. Anyway. Thanks for this. I hope you got something out of it. Um I I'm inspired, I guess, about talking more about this, so I'd probably be doing a few more podcasts in the next few weeks surrounding this issue. I hope that you decide to listen. Thanks again, be kind to one another and listen to the other side. If you're a left leaning voter, I challenge you, switch on Fox News or um Sky News and sit through one um episode and just listen to what they have to say. Namaste, uh be kind to one another and we'll see you next time.